Structured Chaos - An Interview With Victor Saunders
Posted by Jeremy Windsor on Jan 21, 2022
Victor Saunders is the President of the Alpine Club and for more than 25 years has been a UIAGM mountain guide. Over that time he has climbed all over the world - from guiding beginners on alpine "classics" to completing new routes in the Greater Ranges with friends such as Andy Parkin and Mick Fowler. In his latest book "Structured Chaos", Victor describes some of the people he's met along the way. A shared sense of fun, excitement and camaraderie sparkles throughout the text. These encounters leave Victor echoing the words of the legendary Colin Kirkus, "... going to the right place, at the right time, with the right people is all that really matters. What one does is purely incidental...". We caught up with him during lockdown to ask about the book.
Thanks Victor for talking to us. Can I start by asking you how, with so many relationships forged in the mountain did you pick out the handful of people you've described?
I was trying to use a series of snapshots to capture my state of mind at different times through life. So the stories were selected with the idea of showing some kind of progression, some kind of way of seeing my relationship with climbing evolve with experience and time.
Before becoming a UIAGM mountain guide you trained and worked as an architect. Can you talk a little bit about the move from one to the other?
The move was hardly planned, it seemed to happen all by itself. But the expedition world has a lot in common with the architectural process, there is the original conception (usually in a pub!) then the planning, the logistics, and then, the execution of the project. Designing buildings and discovering new routes are both creative in the sense that something that was not there before has come into existence.
Within the first few pages of the book you get a taste of Victor's playful sense of humour - "Never bivouac if you can camp. Never camp if there's a hut. Never sleep in a hut if you can book a hotel..."
The latter part of your book focuses upon two avalanches that you were closely involved in. They highlight the risk of mountain travel and how we sometimes make misjudgements. Can you tell us about what those experiences led you to conclude?
I was trying to say something about risk and probability and how we disguise our bad decisions from ourselves just because we got away with them. I think it is also important to recognise good decisions even if the outcome was unfortunate, after all good decisions are only those that are more likely (but not certain) to have better outcomes than bad decisions.
You paint an incredibly honest picture of expedition life - even describing at one point how you soiled yourself - did you set out with the intention of being so candid? Was it important to the story you wanted to tell?
I am not sure why bodily functions are taboo in polite society! We all have them. So, I guess the answer is no. On expeditions we always talk about poo, it didn't really occur to me that talking about it was being candid! I suppose that one day my friends and I will become sufficiently adult to stop all that stuff...
From early in the book it's clear that asthma has played a small, but significant, part in your time in the mountains. You write in the book, "If you don't have asthma, you won't know that Ventolin is The Most Amazing Treatment Ever. One minute you are suffocating in fresh air from horse induced asthma. Then you take two puffs on the inhaler, and in seconds you can breathe again." How have you coped with it? What advice would you give to others?
I know there are many asthmatics who have had a worse time than me dealing with the condition, I don't want to sound complacent or frivolous but here goes - my asthma is allergy driven (it is also temporarily triggered by cold air, but that generally goes away as the body warms up). So when I am above the snow line, the allergies tend to disappear, and the breathing gets easier. This contrasts with non-asthmatics finding it harder to breathe as they get higher. I suppose it sounds a little facetious, but I used to think that having this type of asthma was an advantage at altitude, and I felt pity for non-asthmatics ... not something I could comfortably justify in front of a medical audience. But as for the Ventolin quote I would stand by that any day!
During the 1970's Victor teamed up with Pete Thornhill to explore the chalk cliffs of England's south coast. Unfortunately progress was not as quick as Victor hoped, " There was a reason that Phil usually climbed alone ... That reason was Phil's dreadful slowness. He climbed so slowly that many people simply refused to climb with him ... On one Hastings route, the Green Ghastly, probably, he took 5 hours to climb a 25m pitch. And as I belayed him, climbing at the heady rate of 5m an hour, I came very close to losing the will to live..."
Can you describe your perfect expedition companion? Which characteristics of those you've described would you include?!?
I don't think there is a perfect expedition companion any more than there is a perfect life partner for most people. There are many compromises you would happily accept on a trip, providing there is the link of mutual respect; mutual respect for the climbing ability and the decision making. When you have that, when it is mutual, it is hard not to empathise with your partner.
The mountains can be a rich source of humour even in the darkest of times. On seeing Stevie Haston fall from a pitch on the Eiger's north face you describe how a, "body [flew] past until it was jerked to a halt by the belay. It was his pitch, and therefore it was his problem...". It reminded me of the "dark" sense of humour that many of us share in the NHS. Do you think it's an important aspect of mountain climbing?
Essential! I like the way that you ask that question, it suggests that climbers and medics have a common, very human, way of coping with stress!
Whilst climbing Sersank in 2016 you documented some of the many ailments you and Mick were suffering from. Memorably, the list concludes with...
"I can't eat. Our dehydrated food is giving me diarrhoea every day. My fingers have developed excruciating cracks that won't heal. I can't do up my bootlaces. Mick does that for me. My asthma keeps reappearing whenever I think about descent. My cataracts are making it difficult for me to see at dawn and dusk. We both think we have memory loss, but can't be sure..."
You put these down to, "age and overuse". How have you managed to adapt to these changes?
You mean other than going slower and climbing easier routes?!?
Victor Saunders and Mick Fowler on the summit of Sersank Peak in 2016
In your book you describe a boxing match that you had with Mick Fowler. How did this happen?!?
I had broken a contract to climb only with him in the Karakoram and Mick suggested the match as a way of settling our differences. It was a sort of duel. As I had never boxed or been involved in any kind of a duel, I was intrigued and just could not resist such an unusual experience. It was remarkably short sighted of me to accept, but also a fairly unforgettable experience.
You have previously written a number of articles and books, including the Boardman Tasker Prize winning "Elusive Summits: Four Expeditions in the Karakoram". What do you get from the writing process?
I find writing extremely hard. I have a short attention span and it is difficult for me to remain seated in front of a screen (or typewriter when I first started writing) for any length of time but the reward is the creative one; you struggle and work hard to write a book, to discover a new route, to design a building etc. With all of these activities you make something new. Hopefully something of value to other people. This is the reward and generally it is worth the pain ... but not always!
Your book concludes with a wonderful epilogue that brings us up to speed with the lives of many of the characters described earlier in the book. At one point it feels like the future is bright. But then Covid-19 strikes. The final few lines suggest a different direction. How difficult have you found the last year?
The epilogue was written at the beginning of the first wave of C19. I was intensely aware that people reading the book a year or more later would know the outcome of that period in our lives, so what I was writing was a kind of time capsule to the future from the past. In retrospect, it has been very difficult for many of the young mountain guides (both French and British) living here in Chamonix. Being old, I have fared rather better.
Thanks Victor!
Discounted copies of "Structured Chaos" can be bought here.
Victor will be taking part in this year's BMMS UCLan Mountain Medicine Winter Webinar Series. He'll be speaking on the evening of Tuesday 8th February. Further information can be found here. Places are limited so book early!
The photograph used at the start of this post was taken by Ben Tibbetts. Details of his brilliant book "Alpenglow" can be found here.
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